[ominous music playing]

Ari Shapiro: Hey there, Mole fans, I'm Ari Shapiro, Host of The Mole Season 2. Today, we're holding a clandestine meeting from an undisclosed location with this season's finalists. For our first guest, please welcome our runner-up, Muna. It is so good to see you, Muna. 

Muna: Hey, Ari. It’s so good to see you.

Shapiro: Next up, this season's winner, Michael. 

Michael: Thank you, Ari. It's great to see you as well too.

Shapiro: And, in a twist, we have our finalist Hannah, and this season's Mole, Sean, sharing a screen. It's great to see you two. What is going on? 

[chuckling] 

Shapiro: Why are you in the same room right now? 

Sean: We-- We have removed Tony from our lives, and we're happy to announce to the world and America that this is a thing. And everyone's cool with it. It's not awkward at all. 

Hannah: No. Tony's in the bedroom, and Deanna's here. And we're in Vegas And, um, we just came to hang out. We all wanted to see each other. 

Shapiro: What have you been up to in the last year? We literally saw each other last exactly one year ago, sweating through our clothes in Malaysia. And you've been in constant contact since then. What's been going on? 

Hannah: Yeah, actually, we have a group message and we… We check weekly at least, and it doesn't feel like the year's gone by. Like it… I don't know. We all keep in contact. We all keep in touch and, like, update each other a lot and, like, get together whenever we can. 

Muna: Once-in-a-lifetime experience. Even though, you know, some people were sneaky or whatever, like, it is something that I think for a lifetime we will forever be connected. 

Michael: Everybody realized it was a game, not real life. So everyone could separate the game and real life, which was nice. 

Shapiro: Okay, so I gotta ask Michael. As the winner, you walked away with that entire pot.

Michael: Yes.

Shapiro: We saw you talk about wanting to do something nice for your father if you won. Now that you've won, what are your plans for the money?

Michael: My dad said I don't have to do anything for him, but that's not gonna happen. So I asked if he wants a trip, um, or wants anything nice. He bought a house, so if he needs anything done on that, I said I would love to do it for him. He loves to play golf, so maybe get him some new golf clubs. Some kind of golf trip would be great. Uh, but he's just happy that I brought him up on TV, so he said that's a win for him.

[laughs] 

Shapiro: What have the rest of you been up to in the last year? 

Hannah: I just traveled for a while. Um, I moved back from Dallas to Scottsdale, like, immediately. I quit my job. I feel like Malaysia changed us all so much, and it kind of like redefined what we wanted to do. And it took us out of our comfort zones in a way that made us want to shift what was next. 

Shapiro: That's so interesting to hear that it wasn't just a game, that it wasn't just a blip in your life, but that it really changed things. Do the rest of you feel that way too? 

Muna: Leaving Malaysia, what it allowed for me to do is continue to push forward towards my passions, even though it was scary, you know? I still work in IT, which I love. And I am also a spoken-word poet. I am also… Have a forthcoming book coming out with my poetry collections. And, yeah, I am still traveling and, um, performing. 

Sean: My life's been the same. This pact that we have I think is, for me, the most important thing because I don't have a lot of friends. People don't like me. So the fact that there's 11 other people who, like, I vibe with and we share this experience together, it's beautiful. Like, it wasn't like a one-night stand with these people. 

Shapiro: Okay, Sean, you used the phrase "one-night stand," which is as good a transition as any. Hannah…

[Ari and Sean laugh] 

Shapiro: One of the most talked about dynamics on the show was your "showmance," is a term that I have learned, with Tony. How much of that was strategy? How much of that was convenience? How much of that was love at first sight? Tell us what was actually going on there. 

Hannah: So I think that the showmance started for Tony and I as strategy for the both of us. Um, I think that we both saw it as an opportunity to…

[laughs]

Hannah: I'm gonna beat you. …um, as an opportunity to have an alliance in the game which no one really has before, um, in The Mole. We were probably the first two people who actually genuinely trusted each other. 

Shapiro: There has been so much speculation in the last few weeks over who is the Mole. And now we can say, Sean, you are finally unmasked. Before I get to you, how it feels to be unmasked, I want to ask the rest of you when you figured it out, what doubts you had? Like, Michael, as the winner, were you on Sean from the very start? What was your thinking? 

Michael: I think the first elimination, a lot of people's emotions really got to them. And I was able to read everybody at that table, and I was like, "That just seems too real." Hannah was next to me, and Hannah was shaking like no other. So I was able to cross off almost everybody. And from there on, I learned everything about Sean. I watched his video. I befriended Sean to get all the answers I needed for the quiz.

Sean: You son of a *****.

Michael: And I just decided to continue to play as if I was the Mole and sabotage to the very end. Um, I tried to pair up with people that I knew were also onto Sean. Um, Ryan, I think at the time was my biggest competitor. So I paired up with her in the caves mission, as well as the wire mission.

Shapiro: Yeah, and we all know how that went.

[CLIP] Sean: Of course!

[CLIP] Deanna: How? How did that happen? 

Michael: I might look dumb to people, but I played dumb to get to the end and win.

Hannah: What was so manipulative about Michael is he actually told me, when I asked him who he thought the Mole was, he actually told me, "Sean." But I was so convinced it was Michael, I was like… And that actually furthered my thought process of it being Michael, because I was like, "Dude." At least pick somebody it could actually be if you're gonna try and throw me off. 

Shapiro: So, Hannah, when you were eliminated, did you think Michael was the Mole? I actually split my votes evenly between Sean and Michael the last elimination. 

Muna: In my calculations, just looking at everybody, Sean should have went home. Sean should have went home first. And I stayed because Sean was just like-- He was going through it that first day. He was going through it. I know, Sean, you can speak on this, but I'm like, "If anybody's leaving, it's Sean."

Shapiro: I gotta tell you all, one of the things that I learned over the course of the filming was how tough it is to be the Mole, and how much mental and psychological pressure the Mole faces. And, Sean, I know you worked as an undercover cop for years, so this is not new to you. But was it difficult to lie to everyone for six weeks, and how did it feel when you could finally let your guard down and tell the truth? 

Sean: The first two missions, my anxiety was through the roof. I didn't care about them as players. I didn't give-- I cut that divide, like, I have a job to do. But I was so worried after they put money in the pot the first two missions. I'm like, you know, I'm trying to screw these people. I'm really trying, guys. Like, please. Like, don't fire me mid-show. After the second mission with the treasure hunt, I was sick to my stomach. Like, I'm like, "Yo, what am I doing wrong?" Like, I need to turn this **** up and start doing my part. 

Shapiro: So how did it feel when you were finally unmasked in that moment?

Sean: It was beautiful. Like, seriously. It was such a ******* release because you're lying to everybody. Everybody on set has no clue. You're constantly tiptoeing around, trying to evade different people. It was an adrenaline dump. Like, I felt like after that, I could go to sleep for like a week. That was six weeks of me bull******** everybody the best I could, whether being you the host, the people holding cameras, the people on the crew. Like, you're trying to fool everybody the best you can. So, yeah, it was-- Thank God when it was over. 

Michael: One thing I love about this game, there's been multiple seasons. There's not one correct way to play as the Mole or as a contestant. And each season, you're gonna continue to watch. And someone's gonna try it a different way. And the way I believe Sean played it this year was how I've never seen it played before. And I give him a lot of credit. Everyone has their own perspective of how the Mole should play, but there's not one right way to do it. And he threw off most of the cast, and he did a great job, and I think he should be proud of himself. 

Shapiro: Muna, a lot of viewers seemed to think you were the Mole. How do you feel seeing that as these episodes have been dropping? 

Muna: I mean, that was that intention in the beginning, was to basically play as a player playing as a Mole, playing as a player. So basically the opposite of what Sean was doing. We brought 30,000 in from the jump. What that showed to me was, like, okay, there's gonna be people who are actively pursuing money and adding that to our pot. I can take a step back, hold my cards close to my chest.

Shapiro: You had the very first sabotage of the game, and it was a sabotage that you chose not to tell people about. 

Muna: There was a part that wasn't shown here, Ari, was that you had a little message on the phone for us, which was, like, this inclination of, like, hey, basically if you were not to tell anybody, I wouldn't either. And to me, that was a huge deal because what I got to do there was basically, I get to throw suspicion onto not only me, but two other people who, honestly, weren't giving me vibes. Tony and Deanna weren't-- My first impressions, I'm like, "I don't think they're the Mole." So I was willing to bet on that, and to throw some suspicion on all of us. And I think that was a move where it helped me continue in this game. 

Shapiro: Information is power in this game, and now that you have actually watched the show, you all have information that you didn't while you were playing. So I'm curious if anything that you saw in the show makes you wish you had played something differently.

Hannah: I knew that Muna took the very first-- Like, she did the first sabotage, she took the correction. Uh, because I knew that it wasn't Tony and Deanna. And obviously, like, it doesn't show Tony and I's, like, alliance first episode, sort of like with Jen. But it was pretty immediate. So we were sharing information, like, right away. And, um, you know, he swore to me that it wasn't him. And I could just tell. I mean, Deanna's like the most genuine person, you can just tell. And so I knew for a fact it was Muna. And she lied to me over and over and over again. And throughout the entire thing, she never admitted it until the game was over. So the fact that she was lying about sabotage did throw suspicion onto her because I think other players did kind of assume it was Muna too. And it's like, well, if she was player, wouldn't she want people to know she sabotaged to throw suspicion onto her? So the fact she doesn't want people to know definitely makes her look like the Mole. And the way that, you know, Sean and Michael played complemented each other so well because here you have Sean secretly sabotaging Michael, kind of being the only one to, like, actually see Sean sabotaging. Kind of like not covering his tracks, but he doesn't want other people to know what he saw. And then you have Michael sabotaging kind of obviously so that nobody really notices Sean's. And so I think that the way these two played, like, obviously not intentionally, but played together is, like, the reason that the results ended the way that they did. 

Shapiro: Hannah, one of your most prominent moments was staying put on Tioman Island to win that exemption. Do you think that was the right choice? 

Hannah: Oh, yeah, I threw it. 

Shapiro: Even though you became a money player later. Later you were like, "I'm going for the money." I mean, when you and I were sitting at that little tea party, uh, you took the $20,000 for the pot instead of trying to find the exemption. 

Hannah: The first couple missions, you have no idea who the Mole is. And even if you know, you're not 100%. Like, you're so insecure about who you think it is. Like, even though Mike and Muna were already on the right track, every time somebody does something, you're second-guessing yourself. And there's so many other players at this point. So it's very hard to feel secure about who you're going in on. And so with that exemption, I do feel that it was worth the 30-some thousand that I spent to get it because I could have easily gone home. I mean, obviously we saw Tony went home really early on. We had the exact same answers. If I would have been slower on the quiz, it could have been me that went home. So I do not regret doing that. I do feel that I brought back the money that I spent, and then some. I did take the $20,000 instead of the exemption during the double elim, which was an extremely risky move. At that point, I felt so much more confident that it was 100% either Mike or Sean. So I assumed, okay, well, all I have to do is beat out two people. I knew that Muna was on the right track, and I knew that Michael was gonna win at this point. So… 

[laughs]

Shapiro: What about the rest of you? Is there anything now that you've watched the show you wish you'd done differently or you have regrets about, you think could've been a better strategy? 

Michael: I don't regret how I played. I think I went in knowing how I wanted to play, and I did that. I sabotaged a little bit more obviously sometimes, but when I sabotaged, I tried to block Sean's sabotage so that other people didn't see what he was doing.

Shapiro: Can I ask you about dropping that emergency kit in the boat challenge in Tioman Island? Because you've been a lifeguard.

Michael: Yes.

Shapiro: People who know that you were a lifeguard were very suspicious about you "accidentally" dropping that.

Michael: I will say, we were out there for over an hour treading water. So at that point, we were exhausted. I knew I wanted to do something suspicious, and no one could really see me in the water. So I had the intention to drop it. I didn't realize I would drop it that much further down, which was a mistake which-- It went from, like, 12 feet to about 15, 16 feet down. But it threw Ryan and I think maybe Hannah at that point onto me. So I stand by what I did. I just wish I didn't throw it by accidentally too far. 

Shapiro: Because you set a harder task for yourself to go back and get it. 

Michael: Yes. I know I sabotaged and kind of played the dumb character. It would have been fun to try a little bit harder at the missions to, like, see if I could actually do it. But I stuck to my strategy to the very end because I knew that's what was gonna help me get to the end game. 

Shapiro: Muna, Sean, any regrets? Any second thoughts? 

Muna: So my strategy, I think, it is what got me to the end. But in regards to winning, I think there's only one thing, and that is, it wasn't even shown, but me and Michael's relationship. Because what it did… You see, in the very beginning, the first day, Michael and I basically formed an "alliance," but it wasn't really an alliance because it wasn't like a, "Hey, you give me information and I'll give you information." It was more so, "Hey, when you're with people, throw suspicion on me, and when I'm with people I'll throw suspicion onto you." 

Michael: I mean, within the first two seconds when it came down to voting Neesh, me and Muna looked at each other and it was like, "We're in this together." And like she said, we never really gave info, but we always threw suspicion on each other. And I knew-- I mean, I loved this cast. If there was anyone who I wanted to beat me, it would have been Muna. And I was happy that we both made it to the end together. We both played our own game, but kind of had each other's backs till the end. And I think we both knew it was gonna come down to who knew more. And if she beat me, I would have been there cheering her on, so happy for her because she played one of the best games I've ever seen. And it's just wonderful to be able to play it with her. 

Shapiro: I want to show you guys some things that were sprinkled throughout the season. It might have seemed like you were looking for a needle in a haystack, but there were clues all along the way to the Mole's identity. Some more subtle than others. Okay, you ready?

Muna: Yes!

Shaprio: Okay. During the first exemption challenge, Hannah, when you stayed put and got the exemption and we were all in that little beach shack, did you see that sign that warned about jellyfish? It says, "Sting warning," which is a reference to Sean's job as an undercover cop. Because, Sean, how many stings have you done in your career?

Sean: That's… okay…

Hannah: Dude, they're crazy. They put that there intentionally? 

Shapiro: That was made just as a clue to Sean's identity. All right, Muna, I think you might have actually spotted this next clue. This was in the heist mission in Forest City. As you were rifling through the apartments, did you notice anything that caught your eye?

Muna: I did. The poker chip. 

[CLIP] Muna: Okay, so this person plays poker. 

Muna: I remember finding it, and I'm like, "This has to be a clue." And I'm like," Okay, it's either Deanna or Sean." 

Shapiro: Because those are the two players who live in Las Vegas. 

Muna: Anybody who's a Mole fan knows one of the greatest parts of The Mole is watching it and trying to figure out the clues. And I'm like, "How cool would it be to find a clue while playing The Mole?"

Shapiro: All right, one more clue during the museum mission. And this was a really good one. There was a sculpture of two hands. And let's play the video of where that hand sculpture came from.

[CLIP] Man: You're gonna be robbing a museum.

[CLIP] Sean: Okay. 

[CLIP] Man: What we're gonna do right now is we're gonna cast your hands so that they can be part of the display. 

[CLIP] Sean: Dude, my one ring finger on this hand is so broken. So if they see it, they're gonna know that's my ugly-ass hands because my knuckle, it sticks out so bad. It looks so bad. I'll never be a hand model. 

Shapiro: How did you break your knuckle? I'm imaging some, like, undercover cop fistfight. 

Sean: No. It was catching a fricking football. That's how unathletic I am. I broke my finger catching a football.

Shapiro: Now that the entire season is behind us and we're a year out from the experience of making it, what is the one moment that each of you always goes back to from Malaysia? The thing that was, like, the most memorable for you? 

Michael: For me, it was Tioman Island. Um, it was right after the first elimination. Uh, we were on a boat. We had no luggage. And all of us just decided we went into the water. And I think it was the first time all of us got to kind of breathe and, like, take in this moment and experience, and just realize we were so fortunate to be there. I think that was like the first time as a cast we really bonded and just kind of put the game aside and just was in the moment. And that was probably my favorite time from the whole trip. 

Hannah: Right after we found Deanna and Ryan and we went back, um, we were allowed to play cards. And we were chaperoned, and we were allowed to, like, basically play cards together as long as we, like, didn't talk game. So like, you know, like-- Like, game is off, guys. Like, pause the game. We just gonna hang out for a minute. And we were allowed to play cards. And so it was just the final six. And it was really cool to have that moment in Malaysia that wasn't game, where we, like, actually… We were still sabotaging each other, but it was just for like a card game. And…

[all laugh]

Shapiro: A literal game within a game.

Hannah: And it was really nice because six weeks of being, like, lied to and being away from your family and your friends, and everything that everybody's saying is a lie, it's just like mentally really, really draining. And so those few moments where you got to, like, turn it off and the game was sort of paused were like, really, really special to me because that's when we really bonded and, like, became a family. 

Sean: Okay, so for me, we were at 23 Love Lane towards the last week. That was a tough, like, week and a half because we were really in seclusion. We started passing notes to each other like we were in prison underneath each other's doors.

Shapiro: I did not know that.

Sean: Little notes

[laughs]

Sean: Yeah. Little notes of motivation.

Hannah: I still have me and Michael's.

Sean: I still have mine.

Shapiro: What does it say?

Michael: I have all mine as well too.

Muna: I have all of mine. 

Sean: Yeah, like Michael, I got one from Michael, and, like, I legit-- I broke down when he sent it to me. Like, how sincere it was. Like, yo, these are like real love notes to each other about, "You're doing great." "I love you." Boom, boom, boom. And, you know, you've been locked up in your room for a week. You haven't talked to nobody. And then you get this beautiful letter under your door and you're like, "Oh ****, he really does like me!" "Like, it's not a game right now." 

Shapiro: Muna, what was the one moment from those six weeks in Malaysia that you keep going back to in your head? 

Muna: Okay, if I had to choose one, I would say the car rides to each location that we would go to. And I say that because, you know, it's off camera. We're just traveling. And we're just getting to know each other. It has nothing to do with games. One thing I really love about this group of people is that we're all so different. We all come from different backgrounds, all have different stories. And yet, through this really challenging experience, we don't know where we're going every single day. It is such a beautiful experience to still yet connect with one another. Even Sean. I think Michael was saying something about this, where Sean…

[all laugh] 

Muna: Where Sean played the Mole in a really unique way. And I think what made it so unique is was that it was so fun. Like, he was such a ball of fun in every sabotage that he would make. And you're like, "Can I even be mad?"

[CLIP] Sean: We're up 45 G's!

[CLIP] Man: Yes! 

[CLIP] Sean: Are you kidding me? What else is there to cheers to? 

Shapiro: Should we end with a lightning round of a few titles that I will hand out, and you can tell me who they should go to?

Michael: Awesome.

Sean: Let's do it. 

Shapiro: All right, first, best poker face. Who was the best at telling a lie with a straight face? 

Hannah: Sean. 

Muna: I think Michael killed it with the poker face. 

Michael: Ryan, because she didn't have any expression, and I never knew what she was thinking. 

Shapiro: All right, next title. Human lie detector. Immediately knows when somebody's lying to them every time.

Sean: Muna?

Michael: I would probably say Muna. She kept calling me out on all my BS.

Shapiro: Added most money to the pot?

Michael: I think it's Hannah at this point. Hannah or Muna.

Sean: I would say Hannah. 

Hannah: I would say it's me too. 

Shapiro: How about most villainous?

Muna: Hmm.

Sean: Neesh?

Hannah: Neesh.

Michael: Neesh. Yeah. 

Shapiro: All right, last one. All around most honest. Like, who deserves to have a halo over their little icons? 

Sean: Q and Deanna. Q and Deanna are a tie.

Hannah: Deanna. 

Michael: I want to add Melissa too.

Muna: And Melissa. You're right.

Sean: Yeah. 

Shapiro: Well, I just want to take a moment to tell the four of you, but also the 12 of you, how much fun it was watching you play this game. From the very beginning, I was so surprised at how protective I felt of you all, how I wanted you to do well. My heart sank when your pot drained, and I got really excited for you when your pot grew. And it was so fun watching how each of you played the game individually, and how the 12 of you played as a team. And the fact that the four of you made it to the end was just such a great conclusion. You just played brilliantly, and it has been such a joy getting to go on this adventure with you. Is there anything you want to say as a final shout-out before we say goodbye?

Hannah: I love you guys. And, Sean, you killed it. 

Sean: Oh, baby girl. Oh! 

Hannah: I still have issues trusting you. 

Michael: I think we brought a different style to the game of The Mole, and I'm excited to see what other seasons coming up of The Mole will be able to add on what we've done. 

Muna: As somebody who is in this game, you want to be challenged. You want to have, you know, competitors who you feel like have you on your feet. And these folks definitely did. And it was just so much fun playing with them. And, yeah, thank you all. 

Sean: Thank you to everybody involved. I don't know who's gonna see this, but it was one of the best six weeks of my life, to be with them. Honestly, all of them. 

Shapiro: Michael, Muna, Hannah, and Sean, it has been incredible being on this adventure with you. I've loved this conversation, and I hope we keep in touch. Thanks a lot.

Sean: Thank you, Ari.

Michael: Thank you, Ari. 

Muna: Thank you, Ari!

Shapiro: That's a wrap!

[all cheer]

[CLIP] Man: Yeah!