[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Do you think Kate would have it in her to be a good vice president? 

[Allison Janney] Oh yeah, as long as she gets those bobby pins in her hair.

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] And gets a proper bra. 

[Allison Janney] And gets a proper bra. 

[TITLE CARD: DEBRIEF: ALLISON JANNEY]

[dramatic string music playing]

[music fades] 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE]  A very warm welcome to Vice President Grace Penn, aka the brilliant Allison Janney, who is dressed as VP Grace Penn. Allison, welcome to the show. 

[Allison Janney] Thank you so much, Ayesha. Yes, you're right. I'm in my power suit. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE]  I'm feeling the power. I think I'm having a hot flash, there's so much power coming off that suit. We hear a lot about Grace Penn from early on back in Season 1. But we don't meet Grace until this season. She roars in and she completely inhabits the space, doesn't she? 

[Allison Janney] She does. Debora Cahn, the showrunner and writer, gave her, Grace, a great entrance. Really, really powerful entrance. I'm a fan of the show. I watched the whole first season before I got a call from Debora Cahn.

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE]  So you were a fan before.

[Allison Janney] Huge fan of the show. Debora, of course, wrote on ‘The West Wing.’ And I could not believe she was asking me to come join this cast.

[intense string music continues] 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Tell us about this wonderful, rich, dark, clever character who is Vice President Grace Penn. 

[Allison Janney] Grace Penn is a formidable woman. Usually the smartest person in the room. She's fierce. She's a fighter.  She's a player.

[chuckles] She's a lot of things, and she's a lot of fun to play. For someone like me, who's none of those things, I find stepping into these powerful women is just my joy. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] And when you were preparing for the role, were there women or other VPs that you sort of, like, took things from? 

[Allison Janney] I looked at Hillary Clinton, I looked at her trajectory to the White House, and I thought that's probably similar to what Grace's would have been. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Now that you say that, I can actually see a lot of Hillary. I think Hillary Clinton is somebody who really has iron in her soul.

[Allison Janney] Yeah.

She is so tough. And she's had to come at politics in a different way. Hugely talented, but her rise was not as easy as the men, for example.

[CLIP] 

[Rory Kinnear as PM Trowbridge] I don't intend to resign.

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] Oh. I thought… Blame it on the jet lag. I'm seeing everything in absolutes. Tell the story and resign. Bury it and stay in office. And you found a third way?

[David Gyasi as Austin Dennison]  If we titrate the information-- 

Perhaps for a moment, we should consider the vice president's suggestion. 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] Oh goodness, I misunderstood the foreign secretary--

[Rory Kinnear as PM Trowbridge] We're discussing options. It's one we should discuss. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE]  We see many different forms of Grace Penn. We see Grace Penn really charming Nicolas Trowbridge and kind of getting him to think that her idea is his idea about burying the story. She's a real operator, isn't she? 

[Allison Janney] She is. She's very savvy. She's very good at navigating this crisis she finds herself in. And Grace has a lot of secrets, and she's got to keep them all…

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE]  She's spinning a lot of plates.

[Allison Janney] She’s spinning a lot of plates, yes. 

[CLIP] 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] No one will read your policy papers. Best case, a sound bite will go viral once a year. Meanwhile, your face will appear in the media an average of 12,000 times a day. Every classroom in America, every embassy in the world will hang your picture on the wall. It's soft power. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE]  Grace gives Kate quite a brutal chat about how she has to step up on every level, including her physical—

[Allison Janney] That's one of my favorite scenes.

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Tell us about that scene. 

[Allison Janney] Grace is set up to not like Kate because Kate is trying to take her job. And Grace doesn't want to like her, but she finds that she does like her. Which makes it difficult to want to hate her 'cause she actually respects her a great deal. She's giving her really good advice. She's not being mean. She's just being absolutely direct. 

[CLIP]

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] Looking to the north, you probably think your hair says you're too busy serving your country to get a blowout. But it reads as bedhead, which sends a signal I think, in this case, that's better unsent. East and west, try a bra with a little padding. I know there's not much to hide. But when your jacket opens, I'm getting headlights. 

[Allison Janney] You're the face representing the country, and you have to pull yourself together.

[intriguing string music playing] 

[CLIP]

[Keri Russell as Kate Wyler] Why are you quitting? 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn]I think you know why. 

[Keri Russell as Kate Wyler] I know what your husband did. That's not the question. You're right. I'm not suited for the job. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Grace, Hal, and Kate sit down for dinner. Kate is obviously really warming to Grace and can see what an absolutely excellent vice president she is. And she says at this dinner, "Why don't you fight? Why don't you fight? Why are you letting them throw you to the dogs?" And Hal just comes in, and he's brutal to Grace. 

[CLIP] 

[Russell Sewell as Hal Wyler] They try different labels, different bowls. The dogs don't like the dog food. 

[Allison Janney] I think Grace is shocked by how rude he is, really, and brutal to her, and I think we find out later, I don't think it occurred to her to fight. Maybe at the start of that scene, it plants a seed in Grace where she actually starts to think, "Maybe I should fight." "Maybe I can keep my job." 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] When I watched this scene, I thought, “This is a real story about how, often, women in politics are quite vulnerable. And women in politics often get sort of thrown under the bus.” And when Hal says, "The dogs don't like the dog food," it's quite a visceral, "Oh!" kind of moment.

[Allison Janney] He wouldn't step down. He'd fight because he's a man. So… I should do the same thing. It's… There's a real double standard. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] And I feel that's like a real moment. There's a real moment of bonding between Kate and Grace. 

[CLIP] 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] I was too rough on you earlier.

[Keri Russell as Kate Wyler] You were right.

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] No. It bothered me. [scoffs] You not wanting it. I got torn apart for the scent of ambition, and then you show up. 

[Allison Janney] Grace is in a different generation than Kate is. And she came up in the world where she was seen as an ambitious woman which was threatening to the status quo. And ambitious women were seen as being aggressive and bossy and unattractive. And there are so many stereotypes about it. So she had to constantly fight against that. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] I just think that dynamic is so fascinating. And it's something that all women in public life and politics really, really identify with. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] And then Hal drops the bombshell that Grace Penn is indeed behind the attack and that Grace had been collaborating with Margaret Roylin. When you read that in the script, what went through your mind? 

[Allison Janney] Well, first, I thought, "What is going on here? Why would she do this?" And then  I found out why, thought, "Boy, that's a really difficult decision to make." And she makes it and takes the risk, and it goes wrong. There were casualties —

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Terrible unintended consequences.

[Allison Janney] Terrible unintended consequences. 'Cause the president doesn't know that she made this decision behind the scenes. So she's in a sticky position to say the least. 

[CLIP]

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] This is Creagan. You know what Creagan is? A nuclear submarine base in Scotland. All of the UK's nuclear weaponry is housed at Creagan. It's what makes them one of the nine nuclear powers. Also, it's the only base in Europe where we can dock our nuclear subs. It's the last place we have any hope of detecting a Russian sub before it's in the vast Atlantic, barreling towards New York. Creagan is target one in the European theater of war. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Do you think that Grace has done this for good intentions? She justified it in a way where she's sticking up for geopolitics. She's sticking up for Western values. 

[Allison Janney] In her mind, it was right. It was a hard decision to make. But her moral compass is good. At least, that's how I play it, is that she was in the right. It was a hard decision, and there were casualties, but in the balance of things, it was the right decision to make, so I don't see her as being morally reprehensible. That's just being a brave woman who made a tough choice. 

[CLIP] 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] Why don't we go for a walk? 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Do you think Kate would have it in her to be a good vice president? 

[Allison Janney] Yeah, as long as she gets those bobby pins in her hair.

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] And gets a proper bra.

[Allison Janney] Gets a proper bra. Absolutely. I think she'd make an incredible vice president. But I think Kate likes to be behind the scenes. I think she prefers it. 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] She doesn't seem as comfortable with the more ceremonial parts.

[Allison Janney] No, I don't think that fits her.

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Where Grace was designed for that. She's very fluent in all of that. 

[Allison Janney] Yeah, she's more comfortable being out front, being a public speaker. 

[CLIP] 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] So, you're done? You've abandoned all your vice presidential ambitions? 

[Keri Russell as Kate Wyler] Yes. 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] Then why's your hair up? 

[Baroness Ayesha Hazarika MBE] Allison Janney, what an absolute pleasure and privilege it has been to chat to you. Thank you for your time. 

[Allison Janney] Thank you, Ayesha.

[CLIP] 

[Keri Russell as Kate Wyler] I realize you faced a bad situation. It was unbearably complicated. 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] It wasn't, actually. You would've done exactly the same thing. 

[Keri Russell as Kate Wyler] Maybe I would've. And don't get me wrong. I am grateful I wasn't in your shoes. 

[Allison Janney as Grace Penn] Why the **** do you think you should be now?

[drum sound effect plays]

[music fades]